This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.archived recording (joe biden)My fellow Americans, please, if you have a seat. Thank you.I speak to you tonight from sacred ground in America — Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. This is where America made its declaration of independence to the world more than two centuries ago. It was an idea unique among nations — that in America, we’re all created equal.astead herndonIn early September, Joe Biden kicked off the midterms with a message for the country.archived recording (joe biden)Equality and democracy are the rock upon which this nation is built.astead herndonHe told a familiar story about American democracy — that it’s a shared value enshrined in the country’s founding.archived recording (joe biden)But as I stand here tonight, equality and democracy are under assault.astead herndonAnd while it can be tested —archived recording (joe biden)That’s why tonight, I’m asking our nation to come together, unite behind the single purpose of defending our democracy, regardless of your ideology.astead herndonIt’s resilient as long as we participate in it.archived recording (joe biden)And for all its imperfections, America is still the beacon to the world, an ideal to be realized, a promise to be kept. There’s nothing more important, nothing more sacred, nothing more American.astead herndonBut I don’t think the story’s that simple.archived recording (joe biden)That’s who we truly are. And that’s who we must always be.astead herndonI think if we really want to understand the message Joe Biden has for the country and the test democracy is facing right now, we need to start with the voters who were most activated by Biden’s message back in 2020, the voters who saved his campaign because of their own understanding of American democracy.[MUSIC]Today, why that group of voters rallied behind Joe Biden’s message before anyone else.archived recording 1Are we at war?archived recording 2Yeah!archived recording 1No two ways about it.astead herndonAnd what Biden is still missing heading into the midterms.archived recording (selina bliss)We are a constitutional republic. We are not a democracy. Nowhere in the Constitution does it use the word “democracy.”astead herndonFrom “The New York Times,” I’m Astead Herndon. This is “The Run-Up.”[MUSIC PLAYING]Hello. Can you hear us? Congressman, can you hear me?jim clyburnYeah, I hear you, and I see you.astead herndonOh! I didn’t know either of those things were happening. Thank you.So back in 2020, Democrats had a historic slate of candidates trying to become the next president. There were over 20 of them who reflected the diversity of the party and who had a range of policy visions. Then there was Joe Biden. He was asking the country to forget all that stuff, saying that beating Donald Trump was more important than anything else.And as the primaries got underway, it wasn’t clear that Americans were willing to make that compromise. In fact, after two big losses in the first primary states, the media was writing his campaign off altogether. But the way I see it, Biden was always going to be the nominee. Because from the very beginning, the most important voting bloc of the Democratic primary, older Black voters, they prefer Joe Biden to any other candidate, and by a big margin.This really set in for me long before primary season even started at a fish fry in the summer of 2019. It was hosted by the highest-ranking Black man in government, South Carolina’s Congressman Jim Clyburn, the Democratic kingmaker of the state. It was a flex of Clyburn’s power. All the candidates were there, hoping against hope that they might win Clyburn’s endorsement.I was there, and I remember the scene of all of them making that pitch, and specifically making what seems like a pitch to you. They all had on those Clyburn shirts. What do you remember from that afternoon?jim clyburnThat night that you were there, that was the biggest fish fry we had ever had. And we had the biggest number of people running for president.astead herndonCertainly. The stage was packed. [LAUGHS]jim clyburnYeah. So you got over 20 people running, and they’re all there. And there was going to be a heck of a trust to be made. So how do you winnow that out?Well, that night, my late wife was ailing at the time and could not have come to the fish fry. So the night after the fish fry, I shared with her how successful the fish fry had been. I said, we have some good friends running. And her position was no matter how many people are running, no matter how many were friends, if we really wanted to win, we needed to nominee Joe Biden.astead herndonThat was her position at that time, even back in 2019.jim clyburnYeah. That was in June, 2019.astead herndonWere you there at that point at that time of the fish fry? Did you think that Joe Biden needed to be the nominee?jim clyburnOh, yeah. I’ve been for Joe Biden all the time. I was always for Joe Biden. There was no question about that.astead herndonSo what was the importance, then, of convening such a group in South Carolina for that moment? I have such a memory of that stage, of everyone with the shirt on, Bernie not wearing the shirt, and then those folks making that pitch to your constituents. What was the importance of that if you knew in your head it would have to be Biden for you?jim clyburnWell, my granddaughter was there. And you’re right. Bernie refused to put on the shirt until my granddaughter confronted him with the shirt. He put the shirt on. And I was sitting there, and I let him know that he was going to put [INAUDIBLE]. They all had to have it on the shirt. So Bernie finally put the shirt on.I didn’t know any of this was going on until later. But what I did know was that most of those 7,500 people, according to the fire department — I did know that most of those people were a part of my network. And I knew from all of the people that I interact with that Joe Biden was a favorite. And I also knew that they were concerned that Joe Biden had not caught fire, and they needed to be fired up.astead herndonThere are all those candidates on that stage, a constituency that can look up and see a Black woman in Senator Harris or Vice President Harris now, who can see Cory Booker, who can see candidates promising a lot of stuff on racial justice platforms. Why, then, do you think that they — and you, from what I’m hearing — looked out at that stage and said, still, it needs to be Joe Biden?jim clyburnBecause first of all, Joe Biden —Joe Biden is in and out of South Carolina all the time. That’s the way it’s been with him. He’s been in and out of South Carolina for years. And people knew Joe Biden. And these connections were there.So you didn’t have to introduce Joe Biden to people. What we had to do was make him valuable. The value of his candidacy is there. The big thing — who can beat Donald Trump? We felt that the best chance for Democrats to beat Donald Trump was to nominate Joe Biden.astead herndonWhy?jim clyburnIt just stood to reason.astead herndonI guess I still — because a lot of other people didn’t make that calculation, right? You had a lot of donors who went elsewhere, even on the moderate side. You had Iowa embrace Pete and Bernie. You had New Hampshire go a different direction. I’m saying, why was the answer for you all so clearly Joe Biden when the answer across the Democratic landscape was not him for a lot of other people?jim clyburnWell, there’s one thing I can say about Southerners. Louisiana is the South. Mississippi is the South. South Carolina is the South. We have learned over the years what it is to be effective politically in a country for a race. Trump’s a lot of things.And we have learned that African-Americans in the South got a certain antenna. And from that antenna, they can read. They pick up things a lot of people with other experiences don’t pick up. But you operate politically in the South, you learn how to operate in two different worlds.astead herndonWhat do you mean?jim clyburnI mean you have to learn how to be successful with your base, basically Black people, and how to be successful in reaching across the color line to attract white voters.astead herndonAnd you’re saying — and I want to be clear — you’re saying in your life, that’s how you’ve learned to navigate those different compromises or what you give and take, is because that’s just the reality for growing up as a Black man in politics in the South?jim clyburnAbsolutely. Absolutely. And that’s the way most of us are in the South. We’re not concerned about who gets tomorrow morning’s headline, who gets the most hits. We are concerned about whether or not we can move the agenda forward, put enough substance in place so our children and our grandchildren will have something to look forward to as they come along.Watching the Trump administration gave me some understanding of what was going on in Germany after Adolf Hitler became chancellor. And then he set out to discredit the press, to co-op the church. And I saw Trump doing the same thing that he did.Look what he did in four years. What the hell would he have done with eight years? That’s what was motivating me and a lot of other people. We got to get rid of this guy. We can’t take any chances out here talking about who may be able to win. There was one guy sitting among all those people who had enough cachet to win. And it was Joe Biden.astead herndonWith that view in mind, then, if we look back to the 2020 primary, did it have to be Joe Biden not just because of all that history, all those relationships and such? But did it have to be a white guy that people knew?jim clyburnIt had to be Joe Biden.astead herndonIt had to be Joe Biden.jim clyburnIt had to be Joe Biden.astead herndonYou don’t think whiteness was key?jim clyburnI’m sorry?astead herndonDid whiteness play a role? Did maleness play a role?jim clyburnWhiteness always plays a role in the United States of America. And it’s still playing a role. Whiteness played a role even when Barack Obama was elected.Let me share something with you. I’m from the town of Sumter, South Carolina. I went to Sumpter during the primary when Barack Obama was running. And I went to speak at this Sunset Country Club. It’s a country club when I was growing up was white only. And there’s a lady there who was a public school teacher in Sumter.And she said to me that night — and I don’t know why she said it. I don’t know if she understood what she was saying. She said, you know, I’m really impressed with this young man. Obama. And I said, yes, he is a very impressive young man. She said, I think I’m going to vote for him. You do know his mother’s white, right? Now, what was she saying to me?astead herndonYou tell me.jim clyburnOK. You know what she was saying.astead herndon[LAUGHS]: I want you to say it, though.jim clyburnAs if that was a factor in why she was impressed with him. That’s what she said. I just looked at her and said, yes, ma’am, I do know his mother is white. I was just smiling, kept going.astead herndonThe story Clyburn tells me is a version of a story I’ve heard many times in my reporting. Because when voters ask themselves who’s electable, what they’re really asking is who they think other voters will accept. And for many Black Democrats in 2020, Biden was the only candidate they believed who could win a general election. And that was the first step to dealing with the existential threat they felt the country was facing, a threat that, at the time, Joe Biden said was rooted in one person — Donald Trump.But over the last two years, Biden has changed his language and what he wants the country to unify against. He no longer just points at Trump. Instead, he now talks about Trumpism and semi-fascism as a movement that must also be expelled.But it sounds like he is merely only arriving to where you were originally in terms of understanding the distance between Democrats and the Trump wing. Is that fair?jim clyburnWell, I don’t know when Joe Biden got there. I don’t know if his recent expressions mean he just got to that point.astead herndonCan I offer a theory here?jim clyburnSure.astead herndonI mean, I partly think that you got to this understanding of unity before Joe Biden because of that history in the South, because of that long understanding that democracy is not given, and the long understanding that sometimes, folks are asked to make a choice that’s between bad and worse. Is that fair?jim clyburnYeah, absolutely that’s fair.astead herndon[LAUGHS]:jim clyburnI’ve been choosing between the lesser of two evils most of my life. This is not a perfect country Alexis de Tocqueville, in his writings, “Democracy in America,” wrote that America is not great because it is more enlightened than any other nation, but, rather because it has always been able — he didn’t say willing — always been able to repair its faults.Now, it’s one thing to be able to repair a fault, and it’s something else to be willing to repair a fault. So many times, even against its will, America has muscled up the capacity to repair its faults.astead herndonI mean, I’m thinking about the arc in your own life, rising to be the highest-ranking Black man in government. But at the same time, your party is now openly saying that democracy is on the brink.jim clyburnMm-hmm.astead herndonHow do you wrestle those two things, both the promise of what democracy can give, which I think you have pointed to over and over, and what I hear from Democrats right now, which is that in doing those kind of compromises, we have also left democracy exposed?jim clyburnYes. But, you know, I’m not a so-called Roosevelt Democrat. Most Democrats that you know identify with Franklin Roosevelt. I don’t. I don’t. I’m a Truman Democrat. The New Deal was a raw deal for most of the Black people in the South.The New Deal gave us Social Security. And you’ve learned from your studies that Social Security was the greatest anti-poverty bill ever written. However, what you may not have paid attention to is that Social Security did not cover farm workers. Social Security did not cover domestic workers. 6 percent to 5 percent of the Black people in this country were in those two areas.Then we go off to war in World War II. And what gave those soldiers a leg up when they came home was the GI Bill, 3,000 GI Bill grants. Only 2 went to Black people — not 2 percent, 2 — 1, 2 — out of 3,000. See, I know all that. And I deal with all that. Most Black people don’t deal with that because most people don’t know that.astead herndonBut I’m saying I often hear, though, from Black folks, maybe younger Black folks, I should probably admit, that say those are actually reasons to not work within the system, to not compromise with the system that has, oftentimes, as you articulated, and I think we both agree on, left the Black folks out of their dealings. Right?jim clyburnYep.astead herndonI’m saying, what is the response to that? Not that those reasons are reasons to continue to politically maneuver. But actually, those are reasons of why compromise with Democrats hasn’t worked out for Black folks.jim clyburnAnd I would say that you’re wrong about that. Just because Franklin Roosevelt didn’t do it — when Harry Truman became president, Harry Truman was the first United States president to speak to the NAACP.Harry Truman did that. Harry Truman sat down and wrote an executive order to integrate the armed services, a white guy, a Democrat.astead herndonDo you retain that hope in this moment that America is still able to repair its — I mean, if we just use Joe Biden’s articulation of America’s faults right now, do you still have that hope that America is able to repair those faults?jim clyburnAbsolutely.astead herndonOK. What gives you —jim clyburnMy goodness. I’m raising children and grandchildren. I got to have that. How do you lose hope? I’m a South Carolinian. Our motto — our state’s motto is “while I breathe, I hope.”astead herndonWhat do you think it says about the country that even after January 6, even after a Trump presidency, that Donald Trump-endorsed candidates are up and down the Republican ballot? I’m asking you what you think that says about America.jim clyburnIt says that we are always in pursuit of perfection. Look, nothing is — nobody’s perfect. No country is perfect. We’re in pursuit of perfection. And we have not gotten to this point by being a perfect nation. Slavery in an indication that we are imperfect. Jim Crow — we are imperfect. And when you measure this country against all others, I can’t think of any other country that I prefer to be living in.astead herndon[LAUGHS]:[MUSIC PLAYING]OK. So if Clyburn is right and the story of America is a story like the ones that Tocqueville told and the one Biden told in his speech in Philadelphia of a country that’s able to repair its faults on the road to a more perfect democracy, then 2020 was a bump in that road. And even if the midterms turn out to be another bump, America would still have the capacity to self-correct through participation, through voting.But when I talk to my colleague, Robert Draper —Hello.robert draperHey, Astead. How’s it going?astead herndonHey. How are you?robert draperDoing all right.astead herndonHe laid out another possible version of history, one in which 2020 was not just another bump on the road but a sign that for some people, democracy isn’t even the destination.[MUSIC PLAYING]We’ll be right back.A big theme in this year’s midterms, and part of the reason Joe Biden gave that speech in Philadelphia, are the shifts in the Republican Party. Throughout the primaries, right-wing candidates won up and down the ballot. And they won mimicking Donald Trump’s most extreme talking points about the election and immigration and diversity itself.The question’s fair — how these candidates are going to land with voters in the general election or whether Republicans have gone too far, and the Trump-backed candidates will ultimately help Democrats in the midterms. But then I saw reporting from my colleague, Robert Draper, who spent the last year recording in Arizona, and I realized that that question wasn’t big enough.Robert, your reporting is really astonishing. How did you end up in Arizona in the first place?robert draperI became interested in Arizona as a result of the 2020 election because it was the first contested state to be called by Fox News on election night and to swing against President Trump. And I then looked to see if Arizona, now finding itself in the position of being a true swing state that had been lost by the president, would descend into a kind of penitent meditation and essentially do what one would expect parties do when they’ve been defeated — to try to win back voters who they’ve alienated. But it didn’t.And that became very clear in the days just after the election where Arizona became ground zero for the Stop the Steal movement, the movement to overturn the election. That’s what first put Arizona on my radar. On top of which, it’s not only that they did not move towards the center, the state party, but that they actually endeavored to push out of the party or in other ways alienate those people within the state GOP who you would ordinarily describe as middle-of-the-road conservatives — censuring, for example, the sitting governor, Doug Ducey, and for that matter, the sitting house speaker, Rusty Bowers.So far from becoming a bigger tent, they actually had become a smaller tent, pushing out people who have been bulwarks of the Arizona GOP and catering entirely to the far right.astead herndonMm-hmm. And how do you see this playing out when it comes to the midterms?robert draperYeah. Well, in the immediate, the far right has taken over the Arizona Republican Party. There’s no question about it. Kelly Ward is the chairperson. Ward said to me that she utterly rejects the notion of, well, we should perhaps nominate people who are electable to the larger population so that they’ll actually win.She rejected that, saying, no, we’ve heard that over and over. And they keep producing these spineless weaklings, the Republican Party does, who are just squishes and don’t do anything for the American people. We’re all sick of it.So that’s been the philosophy of the far right. And it has paid off as a result of the primary in which a Trump-endorsed slate of Republican candidates basically swept the field.archived recording (kari lake)And I stand before you a Trump-endorsed governor candidate.[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]robert draperThat includes Kari Lake, a political novice and former local Fox anchor.archived recording (kari lake)Anybody who was involved in that corrupt, shady, shoddy election of 2020, lock them up.robert draperWho is a 2020 election denier, who has spoken with extreme skepticism about COVID vaccines.archived recording (kari lake)We the people no longer are willing to put up with the shots in our arm, the swabs up our noses, and those filthy masks.robert draperAnd who, in particular, is a social justice warrior of the right.archived recording (kari lake)We are going to finish the wall.robert draperWhen it comes to critical race theory, for that matter, speaking in terms every bit as harsh, if not more so, than Donald Trump has when it comes to border policy.archived recording 3(CHANTING) Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!robert draperSo you have her. You have the US Senate candidate, Blake Masters —archived recording (blake masters)I do not think that we had a free or fair election in 2020.robert draper— who himself is an election denier, has had campaign posters everywhere I looked when I was there saying Blake Masters as senator will not ask for your pronouns, Blake Masters will prohibit critical race theory.archived recording (blake masters)At this point, it is straight-up anti-white racism. I don’t think we’re allowed to say that, but let’s call it what it is. It is toxic, and it does not belong in our schools.astead herndonYou have a secretary of state candidate, Mark Finchem.archived recording (mark finchem)But ladies and gentlemen, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Because when Satan wants to — when Satan wants to extinguish a light, he will stop at nothing.robert draperWho not only was a 2020 denier but actually fought first in Arizona to do everything possible to overturn the state election results there, and then, when that failed, showed up at the Capitol as well on January the 6th and, rather than tweet anything that indicated contrition, doubled down, showing imagery of the rioters, saying this is what happens when, essentially, Americans are lied to.archived recording (mark finchem)So be on your guard, put on the full armor of God, and be prepared to fight.[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]robert draperSo that’s the slate, then, that the Arizona Republican Party has come up with.astead herndonTrumpism seems to be winning, at least in the primaries.robert draperFor sure, yeah. But, of course, that’s been true largely across the board, as you know, Astead. I mean, it’s been almost axiomatic that in the primaries, anyone who’s against Trump loses.archived recording 1Are we at war?archived recording 2Yes!archived recording 1No two ways about it.robert draperBut what I did not expect to encounter was a real grassroots movement not only to continue to push the Republican Party to the right, but also to push it away from democracy.archived recording 1If you think you’re going to vote your way out of this situation, you’re wrong. I’ll tell you flat out.robert draperAnd let me back into this just by observing, Astead, that I’ve been covering conservative politics for over two decades. And I’ve seen a lot of things on the right over the years. I haven’t seen anything like this where, in meetings both to candidate meet-and-greets or grassroots events —archived recording (selina bliss)We Republicans, we conservatives, we’re grassroots. We come from the bottom up.robert draperThat people would begin to stand up and just talk about how they thought the democracy was an anti-American concept.archived recording (selina bliss)And that’s where I want to address something that’s bugging me for a long time, and that’s the history and the sacredness of our Constitution and what our Founding Fathers meant. We are a constitutional republic. We are not a democracy. Nowhere in the Constitution does it use the word “democracy.”robert draperI heard, for example, a state representative candidate, Selina Bliss, say in front of a group, “I want to make clear to everyone we’re not a democracy. We’re a republic.”archived recording (selina bliss)The progressives — and this is the trouble we’re in — they reject the principles of our Constitution and our Declaration. So it’s up to us to study our enemy. I love to talk about Sun Tzu and “The Art of War.” He says, “Understand your enemy, and then you’ll know your own strengths.”robert draperAnd to hear grassroots activists openly and proactively espouse hostility towards democracy, to actually say that we’re not a democracy, we’re a Republic — one of them said to me, to me, the word “democracy” means mob rule. Another one said to me, democracy means that if you get 50 percent of the votes plus 1, it means you can take my property away from me. You can take everything away from me, the tyranny of the majority, notwithstanding the fact that there are all sorts of constitutional protections against such a concept.So what I came to realize, Astead, was that what changed things was January the 6th, when, ultimately, the presidency was not restored to Donald Trump. And I should mention that Trump, on that very day at his speech on the Ellipse, used the word “democracy” no less than four times, about how we must save our democracy. This is our last-ditch attempt to save our democracy. Well, when all that failed, apparently, the view from the right was, well, democracy is, in fact, a dirty word.astead herndonBut let’s interrogate that idea, right? They’re saying democracy is a dirty word, that the country is not a democracy. It’s a republic. Are they wrong? I mean, I don’t mean to go full civics class here, but we don’t have a direct democracy government.And, you know, American democracy has, for a long time, excluded some people, particularly people of color, women, and folks who weren’t originally included in the idea. So what do they mean by the idea of republic and democracy? How are they defining those words?robert draperRight, yeah. I mean, let’s stipulate a couple of things. First, you’re absolutely correct that we’ve never had a direct democracy in the Athenian sense. We’ve always had a representative form of government. A constitutional republic is the mechanism by which we deliver democracy, but it’s still meant to be rule of, by, and for the people.The second stipulation is also a truth that you just uttered, which is that America has fallen well short of its democratic aims over the centuries, particularly when it comes to people of color and women. But that’s not what these individuals in Arizona were talking about. They certainly weren’t saying that democracy is a goal that America has never measured up to. No. What they’re saying is that democracy has now become a means by which a majority of Americans — if, indeed, a majority does prevail in an election — can change the country in ways that makes America unrecognizable to these people.So what I was hearing over and over, Astead, was mainly social stuff, that the majority is now perverting our schools. We now have drag queens in our schools. We now have critical race theory being taught to our children. In that sense, it’s a not-unfamiliar lament that we’ve heard from the right, the “I don’t recognize my country anymore.” But I was surprised in Arizona not to hear it cloaked in anything resembling economic anxiety.This was not anyone talking about a loss of manufacturing jobs. They were talking about, quote unquote, “America as we know it” and how it has been — America has moved not just far left, but to a point where people are losing their freedoms, and the anxiety has reached existential proportions.astead herndonYeah, I mean, it does feel like a lot of this is familiar from the last six years. Maybe Trumpism in Arizona is more culturally focused than in other parts of the country, where it’s more economic focus. But it is a sense of loss that I think is a through line for this political moment.What’s new here is that in the wake of Trump’s loss, candidates are running on a clear anti-democracy message, a message that, if it wins, would be brought to the democratic system itself. But what happens to this movement if they lose?robert draperWell, there’s always an excuse for losing. But the legitimate excuse that a lot of these far-right candidates will have, these MAGA candidates, if they lose, is, well, sure, we lost. It’s not just that we were up against the Democrats. We were up against the RINOs too. The establishment Republicans, the so-called Uniparty, as they now say, speaking of Democrats and establishment Republicans in tandem, did us in. And it wasn’t a fair fight.astead herndonWait, wait, wait, wait. Can you back that up? They called the tandem of them the Uniparty, the Republican establishment in cahoots with Democrats?robert draperThat’s right, yeah. Uniparty, again, is a term I hadn’t heard, really, before 2020, but I’ve certainly heard it a lot, both in Arizona and beyond, since then, from conservatives who feel that, essentially, the Republican Party, as imagined by the establishment, is only slightly different, only nominally different from the Democratic Party, that they’re basically all one controlling organism that wants to keep the elites in power and wants to keep the will of the people suppressed.astead herndonThey have a built-in excuse to an electoral loss, which is that the establishment is united against them.jim clyburnYeah, that’s right. And again, to be fair, they’ve got an argument.astead herndonYeah. I mean, it seems like, for me, what you’re laying out, the feeling of we got cheated, encompasses the 2020 election and that conspiracy theory. But it’s also much broader. Birtherism is we got cheated with Barack Obama.Great replacement theory is we got cheated as new folks are coming in. The abandonment of democracy and majority rule feels like we get cheated as the face of the country is changing. I mean, it seems as if a lot of this stuff is wrapped up in that basic feeling that the cultural power, the cultural face of the country is changing, and that’s the biggest cheat of all.jim clyburnRight. No, that’s right, Astead. And it goes back to — I mean, to a lot of us, including myself, in 2015 who wondered aloud, how in the world is this billionaire real estate developer named Donald Trump going to appeal to rank-and-file voters in South Carolina, or for that matter, Arizona?And it’s because he understood that sense of grievance and that sense of stolen victory. America is being stolen away from them. And so even with birtherism, which sounds like it’s just about Barack Obama and a couple of Hawaii state officials, it’s basically the view that Democrats cheat. And —astead herndonThat the other side is inherently invalid, and so is the coalition empowering them too.robert draperYeah, that this was the active wish of other nefarious groups trying to do in ordinary Americans. And I should say that, too, that this is a language that I heard time and again from Arizona candidates, but I think especially because it is very much a notion embraced by the grassroots right in Arizona, which is that the stakes in this election are existential. Kari Lake, the night before the primary, basically said this is an election about good versus evil.astead herndonSo given everything that you’re saying, that Republicans in Arizona are laying out this election as a fight between good and evil, as a battle for civilization itself, how should we think about the proposal Biden has made for the country? He is asking Democrats and establishment Republicans to take a stand against MAGA and Trumpism. He’s frankly asking for the Uniparty to unify, right?robert draperRight, yeah.astead herndonBut it feels like, from what you’re laying out, that that misses at least one big thing, which is that for this group, there is already built-in excuses to dismiss electoral results, that no matter what happens in November, they’re ready to cast it aside.robert draperYeah, no, that’s — I mean, when you ask either side what is it we’re trying to save here, what is it about America’s greatness do you see, you get entirely different answers. And from the right, that answer largely has to do with individual freedoms, and it has to do with faith. It’s, I think, almost inextricably tied to so many of these arguments that the existential stakes are quasi-apocalyptic as if outlined in the Book of Revelations in the New Testament, that the Democratic forces are quasi-satanic forces.astead herndonWhether it’s Antifa or Black Lives Matter, trans bathrooms, critical race theory, or an influx of immigration, the country is changing in the woke liberal direction. And for some of these folks on the grassroots side of conservative politics in Arizona, stopping that change is more important than democracy in the form of democracy that we’ve known.robert draperIt’s not only more important than democracy. The concern is that democracy may actually be thwarting their ability to do this, that the democracy has become a kind of tool —astead herndonDemocracy’s an obstacle.robert draperYeah, yeah. It’s become it’s become a tool for the left in its promotion of these anti-American values. And I also should mention that I heard at one event that I was at two different individuals, one of them a political candidate, another a head of the Arizona chapter of the Oath Keepers —archived recording 1And I had a weird dream last night about Joe McCarthy.robert draper— talk about Senator Joe McCarthy, the former Senator from Wisconsin who ushered in the Red Scare of the 1950s.archived recording 1Do you remember the committee, the House un-American Activities Committee?archived recording 2Yes.archived recording 1And I’ve talked about this before, but Joseph McCarthy was not only right, he understated the seriousness of it. Remember that?robert draperThey spoke of him longingly, saying that that’s what the country needs now. And I bring that up in this context because McCarthy was as anti-democratic a force as we’ve seen in American politics, trying to spread fear, trying to get people blacklisted, trying to get people pushed not just out of the party, but arrested for treason. And it was all on the basis of a fictitious list that he supposedly had of communist sympathizers and communists who worked in the State Department.And I actually had thought that I would never in my lifetime hear anybody, much less Republican office-seekers, speaking with nostalgia about such a man as Joe McCarthy. And again, it’s an indicator of how deeply rooted the anxiety is about what McCarthy called the enemy within —archived recording 1Domestic enemies, this is what we are up against right now. This is why our organization exists.robert draper— a phrase that I’ve now heard in Arizona and elsewhere espoused about the left.archived recording 1The Democrat Party has always been radical left socialists, evolving into full communists. And now we’re electing communists into our own Congress. How does that work?robert draperThat this is the enemy within. And so when you have enemies like that, you’re in a kind of state of war, and you don’t think about trifles such as a democratic system of government except insofar as you view it, as you say, a kind of obstacle, something that actually has been turned against you.[MUSIC PLAYING]archived recording 1We’re actively training and preparing our citizens and our communities to survive World War III, which will lead to civil unrest, which will lead to an economic collapse.archived recording (joe biden)My fellow Americans, America is an idea. It’s the most powerful idea in the history of the world. And it beats in the hearts of the people of this country.archived recording 1Your weapons, your —archived recording (joe biden)It beats in all our hearts. It unites America. It is the American creed, the idea that America guarantees that everyone be treated with dignity.[MUSIC PLAYING]astead herndonWhen I think about the story Biden’s telling the country, and also the way that Clyburn and the grassroots conservatives in Arizona think about that story, I wonder who’s closer to the truth. Because the thing that Clyburn and grassroots conservatives in Arizona share is a view of democracy that isn’t as much a value that beats in the hearts of Americans, but more as a tool.For Clyburn and for many of the Black voters who delivered Biden the presidency, it’s a tool to perfect the country, make it more inclusive, and grow political power for people who have been left out. For the grassroots conservatives in Arizona, it’s a tool that’s increasingly being used against them to take away political power.Next time on “The Run-Up —”archived recording 4While we’re here, we might as well set up a government.astead herndonIf some conservatives have turned on democracy —archived recording 5Any chance I can get you guys to leave the Senate wing? Just want to let you guys know, this is, like, the sacredest place.astead herndonWhat beats in their hearts instead?archived recording 54 million are coming everywhere, all the way back to the monument.archived recording 6Jesus Christ, we invoke your name! Amen!archived recording 7Amen!archived recording 6Let’s all say a prayer in this sacred space. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for embracing us with this opportunity.[MUSIC PLAYING]astead herndon“The Run-Up” is reported by me, Astead Herndon, and produced by Alyssa Gutierrez and Caitlin O’Keefe. It’s edited by Frannie Carr Toth, Larissa Anderson, and Lisa Tobin with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Elisheba Ittoop. It was mixed by Corey Schreppel and fact checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Szuchman, Sam Dolnick, David Halbfinger, Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani, Shannon Busta, Nell Gallogly, Jeffrey Miranda, and Maddy Masiello. Catch you next week.
